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The Rachel Maddow Show

News/Business. (2013)

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01:00:00

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Virtual Ch. 787 (MSNBC HD)

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mpeg2video

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ac3

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1920

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1080

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Colorado 12, Us 8, John Boehner 5, Msnbc 5, John Kasich 4, Obama 4, Jerusalem 4, Harry Reid 4, Texas 4, Tom Clements 3, Olay 3, Paul Ryan 3, Dianne Feinstein 2, Va 2, Intermezzo 2, Portman 2, Alison Hickey 2, Mr. Romney 2, Mr. Clements 2, Paul 2,
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  MSNBC    The Rachel Maddow Show    News/Business.  (2013)  

    March 22, 2013
    1:00 - 2:00am PDT  

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>> as i just said, our charity does many things. we always wanted to get into the equality movement. when the opportunity arose we said, why not. we figured it would be a good way to launch our program. as i said before, roughly 4,000 kids kill themselves every year and 50 kids everyday try to commit suicide because of the message out there telling them they're not good enough. we just want to change that message, what this is simply about. through donations that come in, we plan on putting those into anti-bullying programs throughout the nation. creating and sustaining and supporting existing anti-bullying programs. >> what is this value of having that house painted with that gay pride sign and symbol, signifying to not only the church across the street but to the world? >> yeah. as i said, they're the poster child of hate. we just wanted to show our pride and send a wave around the world, we can't be more excited about that. it's been such a moving
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experience to be a part of this. >> what have your interactions with the phelps been like? what's it like to have them as neighbors? >> i've run into them a couple times before we painted the house. before we did this we kept this on the down low and did not want the city to find out what we were doing and did not want the phelps to find out what we were doing. shirley did come over the day we were painting and we asked her what she thinks of the color and she said she loved the color and we're very happy she loves our color schemes. >> thank you so much. i'm in for ed schultz and now for the woman who brings the pot at the end of the rainbow. >> that makes me feel positively leprechaunish. thank you.
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i am a little hoarse and have a little cold and i hope you stick with me as if i were not any horse but your favorite pony. we have a lot to get to in the show tonight. this is a news day with a lot going on. we left with a crime in colorado. news of the murder of the corrections chief in that state. he was shot dead in his home hours before the colorado governor signed into law that state's historic new gun legislation. there's new information into the killing of that state's prison chief and those details coming up just ahead. on president obama's trip to israel. today was big speech day, highly anticipated, very warmly received, particularly the part he went off script and surprised everyone. we will have details on that coming up. in washington tonight, the congress packed up and went home. they are taking two weeks off as of tonight.
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nice work if you can get it, right? before they left, they passed a spending bill that will avoid the threat of a government shutdown next week. not shutting down the whole federal government used to be the kind of thing you could reasonably expect from your congress, the kind of thing they get done as a matter of course. under house speaker john boehner, not shutting down the government has become a notable achievement for this congress. mozzletop on that. a low bar. house republicans also voted today again for the paul ryan budget. democrats are very excited about that because they plan to use that vote against republicans in campaign ads for the next election. we have the one and only ezra klein here momentarily to sort out what's important about what they just voted on in congress and whether we just avoided one of the cliff slash ceilings clash crisis congress now schedules for us every few weeks and whether the way they avoided this next one is itself important. there's a lot going on in the news. we have a lot ahead.
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we begin tonight with late breaking and rather surprising news from the democratic leader in the senate, senator harry reid. following two days of angry response from california senator dianne feinstein, she had been very publicly disappointed and angry harry reid was not going move her assault weapons ban to the senate floor as part of the democrats gun reform package. after two days of defiant reaction from senator dianne feinstein and supporters of gun reform and vice president biden made an appearance with mayor michael bloomberg demanding the assault weapons ban gets a vote and neither he or the president will rest until these measures are pursued, tonight, senator harry reid responded saying i will ensure a ban on assault weapons and limits on high capacity magazines receive votes. he also announced he would start the process of moving gun reform legislation to the floor of the senate as of tonight. the exact contours of the bill
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are still uncertain, including the question of what's going to end up in the base bill and acted on in the form of amendments and when the actual voting will begin given he started the process tonight. the statement from harry reid tonight was very clear on one policy change in particular. he said quote any bill that passes the senate must include background checks. universal background checks for gun buyers are not only among the most popular gun reforms in the country, with over 90% support in many national polls, background checks for people buying guns are among the most popular policies of any kind in the country. gun related or not. it is remarkable to think that something with 91%, 92% popular support might be too controversial to get any republican senators votes but right now it is still an open question whether republicans will vote for it. if it does pass the senate, if it passes the senate, is there the question whether it can pass the house. the house is controlled by republicans.
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do republicans in the house support universal background checks the way that 91% of the country does? do house republicans supreme court background checks? maybe. sort of. at least for a second, it seems like they did. >> do you think background check, improving background checks might be part of that? >> they should actually do a real background check on everyone. >> holy cow. omg, right? that this is position held by 91%, 92% of the country. so it shouldn't be that remarkable. but learning that the republican speaker of the house is in favor of doing a real background check on everyone, as he said, that seems like news, right? that seems like a breakthrough. that would mean if it does pass the senate, when it gets to the house under john boehner, it might pass. we might get real background checks for everyone buying a gun. that's what he said he favors, right? a real background check on everyone. except right after he said that, then he said that's not really what he favors.
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>> now, what the speaker meant by that, i should say, i had to go back to his office and say, is he coming out in favor of an improved background system. no. >> no? so that is what he said, but that's not what he wants to have said. he maybe forget for a second there what his actual policy position is supposed to be on this issue. his office had to clarify what he said when he said he wants background checks is not actually what he believes. that's not the policy he supports even though he said he did. john boehner is not alone. in having this specific kind of problem in public. you may have also seen today the republican governor of ohio just came out in favor of civil unions for gay people. he did do that. he said he was in favor of civil unions for gay people. just as republican house speaker john boehner came out in favor of background checks for a second and he had to take it back. today when ohio governor john kasich came out in favor of civil unions, it was only for a second and he had to take it back.
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>> if people want to have civil unions and transfer resources, i'm for that. i think marriage is between a man and woman. if you want to have a civil union, that's fine with me. >> if you want to have a civil union, that's fine with me. interviewing john kasich about his views on gay rights. this is a very relevant issue in ohio republican politics because ohio senator ron portman just changed his position to be in favor of gay marriage now because he has a gay son. he told this interviewer he has talked to senator portman about the issue, he does not share senator portman's view gay people ought to have equal marriage rights but he is fine with civil union, except he is apparently not fine with civil unions. he forgot he is actually against them. his office followed up with a statement that said the governor does not actually mean it. quote he may have used the term
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"civil union" loose lin this instance. the governor's position is unchanged. he gay marriage and changing ohio's constitution to allow for civil unions. ohio republicans banned civil unions for gay people in 2004 and john kasich supports that ban. when he said today quote if you want to have a civil union that's fine with me. he did not mean it. he forgot he doesn't actually believe that. his office had to clean it up and remind him he is actually way more anti-gay than he thinks he is. he had to take back his statement. this happens in republican politics a lot. remember in the presidential campaign, this used to happen to mitt romney all the time. the worst one was that cnbc interview he did with scott pelley. >> my position has been clear throughout this campaign. i'm in favor of abortion being legal in the case of rape and incest and the health and life of the mother. >> rape and incest and health and life of the mother, except
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that's not supposed to be his position. he forgot what his actual position was. his campaign that to clean it up for him. the romney campaign will not say the candidate misspoke but a spokeswoman said he does not actually support an exception for the health of the woman. mr. romney did not misspeak, he just speaked something that missed what the he actually meant. it was also the time at a town hall debate and mr. romney was horrified by the whole idea of. >> it i don't believe employers should tell someone whether they should have contraceptive care or not. >> at the time, seemed like quite a relief. all these republicans support it. mitt romney does not support the blunt amendment to let your employer decide whether you can provide contraceptives. the problem is he forgot that he supports the blunt amendment. that was supposed to be his position. >> of course i support the blunt amendment.
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remember the statement, he is not pushing up daisy's, he is dead. your employer deciding whether you can get contraceptives. he forgot. sounds awful when you put it that way. senator rand paul is in the mid of a screw-up right now. he wants to be seen as a libertarian but also want to be taken seriously in republican politics and republican politics are rather extremely anti-abortion right now. rand paul wants to be seen as small government guy but wants a government big enough to monitor every single pregnancy in the country to force all american women into the government's chosen outcome for their pregnancy. you don't get to decide about your pregnancy, the government gets to decide. rand paul has introduced personhood legislation that would ban all abortions in america federally.
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it would also likely ban some forms of hormonal birth control, like the pill and even invitro fertilization. under his bill, you would have no choice, no exception, you get no say, the government decides, rand paul will decide for you. but then when rand paul was asked about that policy of his this week in an interview he reacted by saying essentially, that sounds horrible. i don't believe that. yes, senator, yes, actually you do. >> sir, just to be precise, if you believe life begins at conception i suspect you do believe that, you would have no exceptions for rape, incest, the life of the mother, is that right? >> well, i think that once again puts things in too small of a box. what i would say is there are thousands of exceptions. there are a lot of decisions that are made privately by families and their doctors the law won't apply to. >> it sounds like you believe in some exceptions? >> well, there's going to be,
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like i say, thousands of extraneous situations, where the life of the mother is involved and other things that are involved, so i would say that each individual case would have to be addressed. >> each individual case decided privately by families and their doctors instead of a government imposed policy that gives you no choice in the matter and doesn't take into account your individual circumstances. people who support that are called pro-choice. that's what most americans believe. you, senator, on the other hand, your policy is the opposite of that. did you forget? i know it sounds awful but it is what you are doing, what all of you guys are doing. rand paul, you are for banning abortion without exceptions federally. mitt romney, you're for the blunt amendment. john kasich, you're actually against civil unions. john boehner, you don't want background checks for gun buyers after all even though none of you really seem to believe that's what you're supposed to believe. why does this happen so much in republican politics and how does
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the other party or country at large argue policy with a party that so often does not seem know what their policy positions are let alone actually believe in them. joining us is ezra klein, msnbc policy analyst. thanks for being here. >> good to see you, rachel. >> occasionally republicans do not just talk about policy and get confused therein. occasionally they make policy the case with a big spending bill they left for the government shutdown they left for the president to sign today. is there something in policies they do enact that show they do understand those policies and believe in them more than this other stuff they seem to not even really understand? >> there are a couple of constants. lower taxes on rich people, not lower taxes for everybody, right? they don't like taxes, but letting the payroll tax cut expire was in fact their policy. lower taxes in general. lower taxes on richer wealthier americans.
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cutting social programs. entitlements they go back and forth. medicare they go back and forth. you remember mitt romney and paul ryan ran in the election as they were going to stop the democrats terrible intention to cut medicare, then paul ryan got back into the house and writing a budget he kept all those cuts and added new ones and had more added into this is program. the real shock in recent weeks or real frustration trying to covers the budget debates. republicans cover five issues, they want to cut the budget deficits and cut defense spending and simplify the tax code and lower tax rates. in a deal with president obama they could get the first four, more deficit reduction, protect defense, the democratic president would get some cover in cutting medicare and social security and they could simplify the tax code by taking out expenditures.
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they are now saying they want none of those things and also not going to get the tax rates and keep the sequester and not have a deal. i've asked a lot of them to walk me through the reasoning here and honestly never come to an answer i understand a little bit. >> does that mean they're post policy. even some things that seem like constants don't actually a matter them, it's pure politics, just positioning themselves vis-a-vis the president and not interested in a particular outcome for the country? >> i would like to have an answer where that isn't true. i really would. i've been trying to find it. i'm sure part is i'm not smart enough to do so or found the right people to have spoken to them. it's hard to come up with one. we can go back today, earlier michele bachmann on the floor of the house saying obama-care is going to kill women and children and senior citizens. the real assault on the constitution was, of course,
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created by republicans, the heritage foundation in '89 brought in the center alternative to the bill passed by mitt romney and endorsed by jim demint in 2008 and as soon as president obama took it up, they turned on it right there. the power the president has decide writing republicans will be that next day or next week or next month is enormous and deeply depressing. >> i feel like looking at freudian slips in social policies or policies that aren't as central to their agenda in washington is actually an important window into them not really being invested into policy at all. i think the republican party is really going to reinvent itself, messaging isn't the key part of it. being rooted in policies for the country. >> ezra, msnbc analyst, thank you. >> thanks. president obama gave a big,
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very highly anticipated speech in jerusalem today. while he was in jerusalem he got a major award. the way the american news media covered that moment will be the most amazing picture you see today. that is next. want younger looking eyes that say wow? with olay, here's how. new regenerist eye and lash duo. the cream smooths the look of lids... softens the look of lines. the serum instantly thickens the look of lashes. see wow! eyes in just one week with olay.
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for the interview tonight we will set an all-time attendance on this show for the most guests in one segment. you made need a bigger tv. hold on.
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here we see hair faces and we look upon their lives and the art they created, and the prayer books think created. they have hate etched into their arms, they were not numbers. they were men and women and children and so many children sent to their deaths because of who they were, and how they
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prayed or who they loved. and yet here alongside man's capacity of evil we are reminded of man's capacity for good. the rescue workers and the righteous among nations, and we see how this place, this accounting of horror is in the end of source of hope. for we learn we are never powerless, in our lives we never have choices, to succumb to our worst instincts, to be indifferent, to suffering, wherever it may be, wherever it may be visiting upon, or to display empathy that is at the core of humanity, and we can make real our solemn vow, never again.
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we had the choice to ignore what happens to others or act on before of others and continually examine in ourselves whenever dark places there may be that might lead to such actions upon action. this is our obligation, not simply to bear witness, but to act. for us in our time this means contrupbti contrupbting bigotry, and anti-semiism, and not in the classrooms of children, and not in the corridors of power, and never let us forget the link between the two.
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for our sons and daughters are not born to hate, they are taught to hate. let's fill their young hearts with the same understanding and compassion that we hope others have for them. here we hope, because after you walk through the halls and after you pass through the darkness, there is light. the glorious view of the forest with the sunshine over the homeland of the jewish people, and a fulfillment of the prophecy you shall live again, and here on your ancient land, the state does not bough long. here we pray that we all can be better, that we all can grow,
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like the children's memorial, a sam th pam pulling. the last time she could describe it in her die are, she said the chestnut is in full bloom is even more beautiful than last year. that's a reminder of who we can be. we have to work for that. we have to work for it here in israel, and we have to work for it in america, and we have to work for it around the world. to tend the light. and the brightness. as opposed to our worst instincts. so may god bless the memory of
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the millions, and may the souls be bound up, and may each spring be a full bloom even more beautiful than the last. >> there you have it, president obama speaking there at the holocaust museum in jerusalem, saying it's not about bearing witness but acting and he reiterated we all could be better, and before this speech he was at a replaying ceremony, something touching to him, and you can tell the tone of that speech. and this is on the last and final day of this three-day trip, and the president's first day of the trip there, a trip
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that indeed sparked an increased bond between the president and the u.s., and so that was the president's speaking there in jerusalem. do stay with msnbc throughout with coverage, and now we will bring you back to the rachel maddow show. among the more disturbing gun crimes was the murder of the head of colorado's department of corrections. shot in cold blood when he answered his door on tuesday night. at the moment there is no known reason for the killing. details ahead.
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dog pose. doggy crimes run the tkpwaplit from eating a forbidden food to making a mess with food to eating another animal's food to hiding things like in the couch, and destroying something of value, and that's a popular one. part of the reason in which dogs get shamed on the internet, is poop related. the whole idea of dog shaming is adorable to the extent the dog's are adorable, right? but to make it into a visual thing, the images are easy to remember. it's a useful tactic dog wise, and right now as we speak, veterans of our wars in iraq and afghanistan are using a similar tactic but for a much bigger reason. they are not dog shaming. they are va shaming, shaming e
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veteran's administration, and they are personally having to wait for the benefits claims ton processed. the weight is very, very long. deployment to iraq, 341 days. va claim, 1099 days. that's more than three years. 442 days, and that's how long this veteran has been waiting for benefits, and that's almost two years, and this one 548 days, or this one, 366 days. these experiences that these veterans and their families are having are not out liers. the average weight is nine months for a claim cleared you have the va and it's longer to the newest veterans specifically if you fought in afghanistan or iraq, and instead of getting better this problem has gotten worse and is trending in the wrong direction.
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the vba, and this week the house committee of veteran's affairs called on the head of the vba to testify about the insane backlog. and alison hickey has a department to fix it by transitioning to an all-electronic system. >> with the benefits we achieved in end to end digital filing capability veterans can file a claim online. >> the goal over all was to fix the problem in two years, and some say the va is doing the best it can. this person here, it called on alison hickey to resign her job. the longest organization of iraq and afghanistan veterans, they have now publicly announced they want president obama to
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intervene, to personally take charge of this problem to appoint a presidential commission to figure out how this fix this thing. and the veterans spent the week this week in d.c. as part of the lobbying effort to storm the hill. there are efforts to ending the va backlog. a lot of americans have spent the week recognizing it has been ten years since the start of the war in rabiraq, the people who fought that name have been storming capitol hill, as they say, to try and get the things that we as a country already promised them. things that we are failing miserably to deliver. joins us now, along with former air force special agent, will simmons. they are here with their srfell vets and a service dog. i want to thank you all for being here tonight. it's good to see you all there.
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paul, thank you in particular for pulling this together. i appreciate it. >> rachel, thank you for having our blah tune and thank you for the bus to get us here. >> i know you met with members of congress and the defense secretary hagel, and i have to ask if you have anything concrete and satisfying and what has the response been like so far? >> no, we have not gotten anything concrete. these veterans standing behind me, it cares deeply about the issue. they come from 22 states to be here. they left families and jobs and school to spend the week volunteering on capitol hill, and the va backlog. in cities like new york, the weight is over 600 days. in los angeles, it's close to 600 days. we know the american people when they hear about it will find it's unacceptable, too. we are not going to stop until
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that number gets to zero. >> will simmons, a special air force agent, can you put a face to it and tell us your personal experience in having to wait this long. what were the circumstances of having to go through the wait. >> i will come out and say i had ptfd, and i had to come and share the story and admit that and it's been a long road to admit to that, and when i came to a dark spot where sometimes i felt like it was not worth living i went to get help at the va and was met with nothing but resistance. i cannot get the va to call me back so i can file my claim or be part of the backlog, because i can't get anybody to respond to me. my mental health appointments take three to our to five weeks to get scheduled, and it takes another six weeks to get this.
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i am fortunate, i have an amazing wife to get me through. and the system is not working and they are killing themselves and that's something they need to stop. the backlog has to be ended. >> paul let me ask you about the political response thus far, nobody in the press, nobody commented on this at all, whoever says this is okay that they think they are satisfied with the situation, everybody says something has to be done. we hear that from congress and the senate and the va itself. why are you now calling on president obama personally to get involved? you are calling for a presidential commission. why do you think that would help? >> we are tired of the rhetoric and we need results. the only thing that matters is whether or not the veterans of getting the benefits they deserve. and we shouldn't have to wait until 2015 to clear it up. the backlog and the disability, and the number of claims waiting goes up, and the dod is part of
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this. put the full creativity, and the white house behind it. we are not asking to put somebody on mars, but we are asking to fix a broken paper process. and so let's go above the va and above the deal and the commander in chief, and we need him to fix it. that's what we need the american people to tell them. we have to petition on the website, asign the petition and altogether send a message to the president and we will end the backlog. >> in thinking how we get from the widespread outrage, towards fixing it, when you were up on capitol hill, and you were able to meet face-to-face eye to eye with policymakers and talk to them about this, and you were able to tell your personal story
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reaching the policy makers in a way they have not been reached before. are you able to impart the urgency? >> yes, some meetings i felt my story opened eyes. i have been faced with an actual problem. i don't think that i really connected with others that took the meeting, and that's frustrating because i am representing the face that you hear about and read about, and i am the neighbor and the constituent calling on you to do something. for the most part we did get good reception but not enough. >> will simmons, and paul and also an iraq war veteran. i know you all don't have earpiece but i am sure you can hear me from there, and thank you for being with us tonight. i know it's been a long week and day, and finishing it up this long day, it means the world to
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me, and thank you. >> thank you, from all of us. we all appreciate very much. >> we'll be right back.
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updates on the strange and
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worrying case on a official in colorado murdered in his home on tuesday night. it happened here at tom khreplant's home in monument colorado on tuesday night. a witness described seeing a black lincoln or cadillac idling outside the victim's home 15 minutes before the shooting. authorities called it a vehicle of interest. late this morning at about 11:00 a.m. central time, more than 500 miles away in texas, a deputy tried to pull over a man heading south. it was just a routine traffic violation. the driver of the car responded by opening fire on the deputy. shooting and hitting him three times before taking off. he then sped in and out of traffic at about 100 miles per hour shooting out the window of his car at the officers who were following him in the high speed chase. ultimately he crashed the car into an 18 wheeler. he got out of the car again and fired on the officers again and the officers returned fire, and he was hit.
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tonight colorado investigators are on their way to tuesday to determine whether that man in the high speed chase might be linked to the killing much tom clements, the colorado prisons' chief. they have fingerprinted him, and he is legally dead. he is being kept alive on life support machines after reportedly being shot in the head in the police shoot-out. the deputy was wearing a bullet proof chest, and the deputy's wound was described as a grazing wound and is expected to survive. colorado investigators will be working alongside the texas rangers in the investigation, but because tom clements was the chief in colorado, the texas state division that investigates anybody that happens within texas' prison, and law enforcement officials say the fbi was making phone calls. the governor reacted to this by saying, quote, we don't know yet
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whether this is exactly the guy, and there's some indication, and i hope it is. the story is we don't know what the motive might be in the killing of clements. tuesday night's shooting happened hours before the colorado governor was due to sign into law the hotly contested new gun reform legislation. they announced the murder of the prison's director at 8:30 yesterday, and then they had the new limit in simi automatic rifles. sources have said there is not any reason to connect the killing of a state's prison chief, or to broader political issues. still in response to the murder,
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security has been uped. one potential connection at least that is getting a lot of attention in the colorado press is tom clements' direct involvement in the man named al ataour key. it was almost seven years ago he was convicted of keeping a woman as a slave in his house sexually assaulting her. and last year he wrote to him personally letting him know that tom clements was denying the request to serve out the remainder of his sentence in saudi arabia. and they had all the media attention on his case after mr. clements' murder. the division was not directly related to the clements' murder
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investigation. he was not being punished but it was because of the publicity. it's very disturbing how a public official was murdered, and when it happened when you don't know why, and there's the possibility the killing was unrelated to his status as a public official. we learn today that colorado deputies, for example, are looking into a possible link to a craigslist ad, and they are investigating whether the person that shot him might have gone to his home on the pretents of buying the bicycle that was posted in the ad. they are checking mr. clements' cell phone records in speaking to him in the days before his death. and the significance of what happened here in terms of the broader connection in terms of politics and policy and just the tragedy of the death. no suspects in custody, and no word on the motive, and we will
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do not take intermezzo if you have had an allergic reaction to drugs containing zolpidem, such as ambien. allergic reactions such as shortness of breath or swelling of your tongue or throat may occur and may be fatal. intermezzo should not be taken if you have taken another sleep medicine at bedtime or in the middle of the night or drank alcohol that day. do not drive or operate machinery until at least 4 hours after taking intermezzo and you're fully awake. driving, eating, or engaging in other activities while not fully awake without remembering the event the next day have been reported. abnormal behaviors may include aggressiveness, agitation, hallucinations, or confusion. alcohol or taking other medicines that make you sleepy may increase these risks. in depressed patients, worsening of depression, including risk of suicide, may occur. intermezzo, like most sleep medicines, has some risk of dependency. common side effects are headache, nausea, and fatigue. so if you suffer from middle-of-the-night insomnia, ask your doctor about intermezzo
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and return to sleep again. ♪ tomorrow night, here at 9:00 p.m. eastern, instead of a normal edition of the "rachel maddow show," we will have talking hubris, and it will be hosted by our own chris hayes. it's the hubris post show. now, we originally aired this documentary last month and got a ton of eyeballs, and it was the
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most watched documentary on msnbc in a decade. we specifically timed the debut of the film to coincide not with the invasion, but the selling of the invasion but the lying to the people. it turns out that having the re-air tomorrow could not have come at a better time because something remarkable has happened this week as the country marked the 10th anniversary of the war. this week at the 10-year mark, the folks whose idea that war was in the first place has started to come out of the woodwork, not to apologize, but to say that actually it was not a disaster or a deception, it was a great idea and they are not sorry and everything worked out great. >> you try to do everything you can diplomatically, without force. we had to use force.
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>> and the argument this is a war you wanted? >> wanted? why? because we like war? i did what i did, and it's all on the public record, and i feel very good about it. if i had to do it over again, i would do it in a minute. >> i feel very good about it. what is there to feel bad about? one of the cohorts in selling the war to the american people, was this guy. and here was his contribution to the discussion this week. >> it's democratic maybe by a very low standard, but it's night and day in improvement how the people were suffering over saddam. the argument that the war was with it because the they are now free, and that

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